Scott – if you are believing propaganda and are repeating it as a parrot (or are you one, did you get your DNA examined by a reputable lab), then we have to stop right there.

There is an absolutely free press in Russia. You don’t need to have a license to operate a publishing house. You CAN LISTEN TO CIA-funded Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty on FM broadcasted locally – in your car. Euronews is in Russian available through over the air TV. Putin has genuine approval rating of over 70% (he is an amiable man, he is unfortunately sheepish, for example he is reluctant to offend his buddies ethno-Nazis).

By the way, here is an example of how “unfree” is Russian press. It’s an article from St. Petersburg’s Fontanka in translation which indirectly accuses Putin in having own business interests in Estonia and does it in a very ironic manner.

http://timely-thoughts.com/russia/2007/05/05/_president_discovers_truth_about_ports_and_russian_business_in_estonia/

People are upset with Putin because he did not punish Estonia. It hurt him a lot.

Finally, Soviet war monuments and wartime graves are all over – everywhere where Nazis were fought – there is one in Berlin and one Vienna. Sorry, Germans and Austrians are not destroying war graves (and Germans had their DDR experience) – why – because Germans are human, and Estonian ethno-Nazis are not.

I agree, Russia should have denounced the “recognition” of rogue ethno-Nazi statelet’s “independence” from 1991 (the so-called Tartu Peace Treaty is a sham, so we won;’t touch the stinking thing for the time being), break off relations, announce that Estonia consists of two provinces of Russia (no need for visas, even ethno-Nazis can come visa-free though I guess the most vicious ones should be imprisoned unfortunately Russia has no death penalty now) and as of embassy they should have kicked the stupid thing out of the country. It is incomrehensible how meek, sheepish and toothless is today’s Russia.

No – Etho-Nazi that’s not true. The Red Flag flew over Nuremberg tribunal building, and under this flag spiritual ancestors of those who now destroyed the soldier’s grave in Tallinn, were condemned. Estonian ethno-Nazis had murdered their entire Russian and Jewish population with most killings done BEFORE Nazis arrived. In Iuriev (Tartu) 12500 people were killed because of who they are. After war, Soviet authorities deported 57 000 Estonian collaborators, saboteurs Nazis, and their family members. They apparently did not kill or deport enough as all the Nazis back in Estonian “parliament.” 57 000 deported and killed Nazis and Estonian “patriots” is not a big number. In Pskov and Novgorod and Northwestern region Estonian SS members murdered over 200 000 civilians. Now, the descendants of these SS butchers are participation in occupation of Iraq, where perhaps as many as one million civilians died (700 000 according to the Lancet magazine estimates) – that’s as many as victims as there are LIVE Estonian today. So let’s put things in a perspective here – a mildly oppressive authoritatian regime (Red Flag) versus SAVAGE BARBARITY (Nazi flag, Estonian flag). And no – I am not watching Russian propaganda (I don’t have Russian TV!).

Anyway, look at it – this is the face of Estonia and of EU. More to come.

http://www.timely-thoughts.com/discrimination/2007/05/06/equal_housing_opportunity_under_eu_and_nato_protection/

So what? Soviet isn’t a nationality, it’s a political system that was cast off years ago.
Was the post-1776 “cultural cleansing” of anything supporting the British monarchy in the US incorrect? I don’t think so.

Last year, a bill was introduced in Estonia to criminalise the display or possession of anything ‘Soviet’. The removal of just about every other public Russian artefact is testimony to the programme.

No. They don’t remove Russian artifacts. In fact this country is dotted with markers to the many Russian intellectuals that called Estonia home during periods of their life.

They did criminalize the display of Soviet and Nazi symbols if they are used to incite violence. This past week there were many Red flags at cemeteries and memorials in Estonia. No one was arrested.

Following cultural cleansing, there is now a form of ethnic cleansing of the minority Russian speakers by the Language Directorate. No one denies this.

The language directorate might be too harsh. But nobody denies that unilingualism among Russian speakers is a disservice to the Estonian speaking majority. In certain professions, the directorate makes sure that professionals — ie taxi drivers — can speak the language that most people speak.

I am not sure that that is their job. I’d prefer to file a complaint with a firm if I got a cab driver that didn’t speak Estonian. But I’d hardly call it “ethnic cleansing,” joker.

I’m generally not one to accept claims at face value. I respectfully note your knowledge and interest in the Baltic region.

“this in no way okays behavior like the roughing up of diplomatic personnel.”

Oh come on.

I’ve been on demos outside American embassies since I was a kid – from Vietnam to Iraq.

Demonstrating outside an Embassy is a legitimate protest in every other country. Why not in Moscow?

By the way, the British Ambassador has been needled by Nashi kids for months – ever since he went to an anti-Putin rally during the G8.

He hasn’t chickened out or made ridiculous claims. They haven’t even scratched his Jag.

I suppose you also believe the Estonian stories that their computers were hacked by ‘people with Kremlin IP addresses” and that “Russia has attacked the whole of the EU”.

Nothing was stopping the Russian population from voting for any other candidates running in the last presidential election. Nothing kept Yavlinsky and Kasparov from entering that presidential race. All of those who ran in it had plenty of media and travel time.

You miss the point on the statue’s dismantling. They way it was done ignited a perfectly understandable outrage.

As for the Bronze Soldier, it needed to be moved. It was a magnet for trouble in the heart of the city.

There were graves buried under the trolleybus stop (so honored, no one is really sure who they were or under what circumstances they were killed). They are going to be identified, and moved to the military cemetery in the city.

Oh, the cemetery. I went there on May 1 to see the Bronze dude. Without that ugly wall and the hammer and sickle emblem making a halo over his head, I thought that it was actually a pretty decent work of art. It’s in a much better place, IMO. And riots aren’t going to start in the midst of the honored dead.

Not under previousely described circumstances. But the actions of Russia can be called abominable and totally shameful.

The mentioned reaction is quite understandable with a portion of it being extreme.

The action of dismantling can be called “amazing”.

Where did I deny that? Sorry, but much of any population opposes many a thing. Those of us to the west of Russia have free elections, rule of law, and all that good stuff. A freely elected government moved some unmarked Soviet graves to a cemetery. The reaction has been… well, amazing.

I can understand why Russia, many Russians and others look negatively at the move.

“Not civilized” and “abomination” are a bit loaded. The same has been said of the Estonian government move.

Relocating is the right word. And yes, even most of the Estonians opposed it – including me. But the circus around the statue didn’t leave any choice. And believe me – the cemetery is better place for it.

They way Russia has acted is not civilized. Real abomination.

For you, one side is lunatic unlike the other.

I can’t agree with that seeing what has transpired over the course of time.

Are you denying that about 50% of the population opposed the satue dismantling?

Are you denying that it was foolhardy to take it down and provoke this response?

Sorry, I can’t agree with the decision for the previously stated reasons. I’m not the only one.

Parliamentary democracy of the type we have is a pretty strange animal. The fact that Estonia’s “Russian parties” have fizzled and gone splat against the threshold, to the point where voting isn’t ethnic anymore, says… something. It’s not so here in Latvia, not yet.

So we are talking about highly charged symbols, and that’s probably obvious to everybody by now.

Estonia has one of the freest presses in the world and a democracy that is almost miraculously advanced if you take into account the hell it came from, and I think anybody who knows Estonia would agree with that except for those who are hung up on the citizenship issue (in other words, I think even they can appreciate what a remarkably free and smoothly functioning republic Estonia is, if they are fair [they're often not, IMO]).

The freely elected government of Estonia made a decision. You know, the UK is an august democracy, but “Bush’s lap dog” went to war for Washington, etc., etc., yet silver-tongued Tony is still PM, despite massive opposition to that decision. That’s how political systems work.

I suggested previously that the lack of communication disturbs me — but I am familiar with this type of situation. We had a similar thing here in Latvia, regarding education reform. Some of the same people who helped bring about dangerous tension in Latvia are involved with the violence in Estonia (see, for instance,
this. How was the communication? Introduce a reform that helps Russophones integrate, let schools choose between five tracks of differing types, let maniacal Russophiles develop whatever tracks they can if the five are not good enough, make 60% of schooling in Latvian from tenth grade… Response of Shtab: “They are closing Russian schools!” Better (my personal favorite) — “Russian schools — our Stalingrad!”

With all due respect, I consider such characterizations of TTT and the BHRGG to be propagandistically false.

I prefer sticking with fact based commentary. This is why I frequent those venues.

I really don’t see so much room for disagreement on this thought. This is why the Estoninan government made a poor decision.

I was pleased to see Clinton’s last ambassador to Russia make a diplomatically worded comment in support of this view.

I’m afraid I don’t consider The Tiraspol Times or the BHHRG to be purveyors of “fact-based info.” The BHHRG, always a shady outfit that used the “Helsinki” to deceive, became downright notorious during the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. See, for example, David Aaronovitch’s article, “PR man to Europe’s nastiest regimes.” Their views on Latvia may as well have been composed by the Kremlin — or by Rubiks, the criminal leader of the dregs of the hardline Communist Party, who would have led the bloodbath here had the August Putsch succeeded.

Dear Copydude,

I think it rather annoying that you’ve copied the same text into comments at different blogs, for instance at mine. It shows that what other people say doesn’t really matter, which is part of why this brouhaha is so tragic — for instance, as Mina pointed out, the Estonian government did announce and discuss the relocation (rather than the destruction, never planned) of the monument repeatedly. It’s quite difficult to communicate if one side is determined to cling to false beliefs. My response to your comment is at my blog, and I won’t repost it here.

Now we are getting somewhere. Not Estonian nationalists but Russian and Estonian nationalists. And this was the main reason – as slow as Estonians are, handful of Estonian nationalists (some ex political prisoners in USSR and some young hotheads) started to “pick up” the provocations. They stood at the bus-stop next to the statue with Estonian flags and were attacked.

And this is the main reason it was moved from the middle of the city to cemetery. I really respect BBC – but even they are prone to mistake or be biased sometime. Because even BBC reflected it as a removal or the statue “that caused riots”. The real course of events was, as we all know, somewhat different. And the statue was never meant to be “removed” but “relocated”.

But Russia’s actions are most lamentable.

I added some photos:
New location of the statue – military cemetery:
http://www.postimees.ee/foto/1/8/94981463620cea819a_3.jpg
http://www.epl.ee/pic.php?suurus=s&file=164643

In several instances, the BBC noted that the statue’s former placement was a meeting ground for what were described as Estonian and Russian nationalists.

The provocation comes from the Estonian government. It’s understandable why many Russians take offence to the dismantling. This doesn’t excuse any violence made in the name of protesting the action.

To prevent further provocations the statue was moved – the new location was announced. But Russian media refused to impart the messages – sadly big part of Estonian-Russians rely on Russian channels.

For what do you blame Estonian government for? For trying to deescalate the situation or for moving the statue to decent location and identifying the remains and giving them proper reburials (which Russia was unable to do for 60 years). Although I also disagree with the government I find that under those circumstances they had no other choice.

And do not try to make the marauder to represent Estonian-Russian speakers – don’t.

But who I blame at the moment is Russian government who is using controlled media to spread plain lies. Russia – who doesn’t comply with Vienna convention. I also watch Russian TV channels and their reflection of them situation is propagandistic – reminds me the methods of nazi-germany’s to mobilize the masses and create the “enemy figure”.

The lies that spred trough Russian state controlled media were louder than phlegmatic explanations. Everyone can use news.google. to see how much false information have the ITAR-TASS, RIA novosti, Pravda … have distributed .”

****

The above isn’t a fair accounting. The BBC noted how Estonian nationalists used the mentioned statue site as a meeting ground for their activity.

Regardless, the level of displayed animosity was nowhere near the level of what the world has recently seen with the move to dismantle the statue.

The Estonian government is the one in error. Blaming others is an attempt to smoke screen that move.